On Dreaming, Becoming, and Choosing Yourself with Trudi LeBron

In this deeply human and inspiring conversation, host Danielle Cohen sits down with Trudi Lebron, entrepreneur, writer, former teen mom, and visionary founder of the Institute for Equity Centered Coaching. 

Together, they talk about how Trudi got to where she is, even though as she says, her life was, “a statistical improbability”, and what that means for all the world's dreamers. 

They both share how the challenge of parenting at a young age shaped them as well as the new challenges of starting perimenopause, and raising adult children. 

Trudi’s story is one of striving, pushing, and eventually arriving at a place of awe: awe for her own journey and the radical act of choosing herself.

Trudi’s word of the year is “dream.” She’s been a dreamer her whole life, and those dreams have propelled her forward, even when she didn’t have all the answers or a clear roadmap. 

What she did have was the courage to begin, to take that first step, even when the path ahead was uncertain.

This conversation is also a powerful example of what Danielle explored in her first episode of Visibility Medicine: Where Magic Meets Strategy: Standards, Support, Staying, and Dreaming, particularly the role that dreams and desires play in shaping a meaningful path forward.

This episode is an invitation to imagine what’s possible for your own life. It’s a reminder that dreaming big isn’t just for the lucky or the privileged, it’s for anyone willing to believe in the power of their own potential. 

So, if you’re looking for a little imagination activation, a dose of comfort, and the reassurance that anything can happen when you dare to believe, this conversation is for you.

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Transcript:

Visibility Medicine: On Dreaming, Becoming, and Choosing Yourself with Trudi LeBron

[00:01:46] Today's guest is someone I deeply appreciate on many levels. Trudi LeBron. Trudi is a visionary leader. She is also incredibly kind, warm, and just a joy to be with. I love that I get to collaborate with Trudi. Trudi is the founder of the Institute for Equity Centered Coaching, and she is an inspiring force in the world of personal and professional transformation.

[00:02:14] In this conversation, we dive into her journey as a dreamer and a doer, navigating the interplay of radical imagination, reinvention, and impact. I love this conversation. Trudi shared her story of defying odds, berthing dreams into reality and finding alignment through life's twists and transitions from her groundbreaking work in diversity, equity, and inclusion to her artistic approach to leadership and living.

[00:02:44] This episode is rich [00:02:46] with wisdom, texture, honesty, and inspiration. Whether you're at a threshold moment, craving a deeper connection with your own dreams or seeking a more aligned way of living and working. Trudi's insights will light a fire for you. Let's get into it.

[00:03:03] Danielle: Hi, Trudi. I'm so happy that you're here with me. Trudi is a friend and a colleague and a source of inspiration and guidance for me as well as for so many. Thank you for being here.

[00:03:17] Trudi: Thank you for having me.

[00:03:18] Danielle: I was saying before I hit record, we're going to more have a conversation than an interview and see what's alive.

[00:03:26] We haven't talked for a little while and I said, right before I hit record, I was like, this will be kind of extra fun because I'll be asking questions that I really don't know the answers to in this moment.

[00:03:36] Trudi: I love it.

[00:03:37] Danielle: So, why don't we start with, It's a new Gregorian calendar year. And I'm curious, do you have a [00:03:46] theme, a word, an anchor, or a beacon for yourself for this year?

[00:03:51] Trudi: I do actually. And I didn't think that I would have one. I thought this might be the year where I let it go. And then, the, yeah, the universe said otherwise. And so the word that I am working with this year, my theme, my practice for the year is actually one that I've had before.

[00:04:08] It's one of my favorite words. It's just dream. Oh, and I'm telling you, just from where I'm sitting at in my office, if I just scan the room, to my left, I can see literally like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 things with the word dream on them or just like the word dream alone. Like my kids used to buy me that and make me like little, you know, the projects that kids make at school.

[00:04:35] They were like, yeah. Yeah, the word dream and all that, yeah, it, that is very alive for me, right now.

[00:04:42] Danielle: I love that. Okay. I would like to stay on this and like dive in a [00:04:46] little deeper. when I like think of little Trudi, I imagine that the dreamer part was really strong then too.

[00:04:53] Am I, is that true? 100%. Yeah. and the thing is, you're not like,you are someone who brings dreams into being. Yes. I know. You're like, well, yeah, obviously, but it's actually not this. Not everyone is that way there. there's a pretty big gap between the dream. And the material and not all dreams are meant to be born and all of that kind of stuff, but like pulling things from, I think of it as like from heaven to earth or like from the invisible to the visible from that inspiration or thought or idea into like Form is not a small thing.

[00:05:31] And another thing that I've witnessed with you is that it's not like every single thing always does come fully to fruition or comes in the form you wanted it to, or the way you wanted it to, but it just sort of seems to kind of bounce or like [00:05:46] duck feather off of you, you know, like water rolls off a duck feather and you just go like you keep dreaming the dream.

[00:05:53] Trudi: Totally, totally. And you're so right. And I have to say that what you're describing is only something I've come into an awareness about, like, I would say in the last six months or so. I, yeah, like I recently said, I'm actually facilitating this workshop right now called dream sequence. what I'm calling a dream activation.

[00:06:14] Super fun. and What I was sharing with them is that, you know, as I was kind of reflecting on my own story, Like my, almost everything about my life, including the fact that you know, I have a college degree and I live in the house that I live in and I own my own business and I've generated the kind of revenue that I have, even the fact that I finished high school is like a statistical improbability actually compared to like my early life story, right?

[00:06:42] Like by the time I was 15 years old or by the time I was 16, I had [00:06:46] two kids and I was dropped out of high school. Okay. Wait, wait,

[00:06:49] Danielle: wait, wait. Can we just slow this part? I mean, I know your story lives out in the world, but for the people who, for the listeners who maybe are hearing this for the first time, because I think it's really useful to contextualize.

[00:07:02] It's all of our stories, right? To land us in what is the context of this person. And you may have this constitutional tendency to be a dreamer and a dreamer that is also someone who is a birther, you know, someone who can bring those dreams into being and also. So there's all this other context.

[00:07:25] Trudi: So yeah. So just to slow it down, so I 100 percent to confirm that I was that dreamer, that was my dominant like identity. I would get in trouble for daydreaming. Like I was that stereotypical kid, like always thinking about the future, right. In very finite, like very specific detail about Things I wanted to do and ways [00:07:46] that I wanted to be and friends I wanted to have and where they might live, like just lots of very specific things.

[00:07:52] and I lived in a, an environment in a neighborhood where I didn't know all of those things were like really dreams. I didn't know anyone really who had like a college degree except for teachers. I didn't know people who owned their own home. my great grandparents did.

[00:08:08] Right. But that was like it, yeah, and I did, I had two kids by the time I was 16. So I got pregnant when I was 14. I showed up to my freshman year in high school, pregnant already. dropped out that year. I had another child like the next year. So I was 16 years old, dropped out of high school, raising babies.

[00:08:31] and yeah, like just the, according to like just decades of data, the chances that I would go to college, finish college, have a successful career, you know, all of those things were like, just so unlikely. They were unlikely to begin with, and they got [00:08:46] more complicated as like my, as I had kids, I was on welfare.

[00:08:49] I had all kind of like government assistance for things, right? there was no like rational reason for me to think or expect that I would be able to have the life that I have today.

[00:09:00] Danielle: Tell, give a little insight into the life again, like for the people who maybe are hearing your name for the first time, tell us where you are today.

[00:09:09] Trudi: Yeah. So today I, I have been an entrepreneur for, we just celebrated our 11th year anniversary of my.

[00:09:16] Danielle: And how old

[00:09:16] are you now?

[00:09:17] Trudi: Yeah. I'm

[00:09:17] 43.

[00:09:19] Danielle: Okay. So this is 30 years later from about 30 years later from the first baby.

[00:09:24] Trudi: Yep. So I. I'm 43. I have owned my own business for over 10 years, but 10 years, like really officially in this kind of this consulting firm, which evolved into a coaching practice and evolved into a really robust diversity, equity, and inclusion, consulting firm.

[00:09:43] And in 2021, [00:09:46] we launched the Institute for Equity Center of Coaching. Since 2020, my company has generated over 4 million in revenue. we have team members we have, you know, and like a lot of the things that I wanted to do, like I have friends all over the world and I can like navigate New York city very comfortably, which was a very specific, like goal of mine when I was a child, like to be able to do that, right.

[00:10:10] And I can go to have dinner in New York, like. When I kind of want to like these little things right that when I was a kid, I would just be like, Oh, like, I just want to like, I just wish I could. And you know, my kids are grown. I am married. I have, I've had another child, in my late 20s, who's now 16.

[00:10:30] And I mean, I have a pretty, you know, certainly not free from stress or drama or like other things human. Yeah. That, and also that are complicated also by like the history of my life, right? Like the [00:10:46] things that are still, that come up, right? It is, it's not, you don't just turn 30 or your kid, you know, I mean, anyone would adult kids know your kids don't just like turn 18 and all of a sudden they're like, you know, like totally functioning as adults, right?

[00:11:02] Like I've been parenting for the majority of my life, right. It would have. Which, has its own context. So anyway, so my life is a lot in a lot of ways. I have the life of my dream. then something happened though, like in 2022, and this is really kind of what brought me back to this inquiry over the last couple of years.

[00:11:23] you know, I got really successful and I wrote a book and I was on stages and people were starting to know, you know who I was and I had all the things that so many people want to have in terms of like career success and I kind of like almost missed the moment. Like I almost missed the fact that I had achieved this level of success and like all of [00:11:46] a sudden I was just hustling.

[00:11:48] Like I lost the connection to the dream and really just got hyper focused on making sure I was, I mean, I got really afraid kind of that,this was all new to me and what now do I have to do in order to keep up with it all? So that really took a toll on me.

[00:12:04] 2021, 2022, 2023, really rough, rough years. Like emotionally, psychologically, I started going through perimenopause, like so many of the things that we talk about, right? Children were having like challenges transitioning to adulthood. 2023 was really, really rough. I started to become aware of like my mood and started seeing a psychiatrist and just learning about all these things.

[00:12:28] and just going back down to the basics and scaling down and creating more space and tapping into who I was like trying to remember, trying to kind of, I mean, This sounds very like Eat, Pray, Love, this like moment, I swear this is how it happened. There's a scene in [00:12:46] Eat, Pray, Love in the book and also in the movie where Liz Gilbert is like, on her, on the floor in the bathroom and she's crying and she's like, I'm going to get a divorce, blah, blah, blah.

[00:12:55] And she gets this like whisper from above and the, and like, God said, go back to bed, Liz. that was the instruction, go back to bed.

[00:13:03] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:13:04] Trudi: What she needed to do in that moment. And so I was having a similar kind of like experience. I'm like, what? I need a sign, you know,And this was top of 20, right at the end of 2023.

[00:13:18] right around New Year's. And so since 2024, I've been in this kind of process, but the message I got was like, it was really this question of what would you choose if you centered yourself? what would you put yourself in the center of your own life?

[00:13:31] Danielle: as you're talking, first of all, I'm sure there's so much resonance I imagine for people who are listening. And also it's I feel like we're walking through this beautiful home and we're like, and we're peeking into all these gorgeous [00:13:46] rooms and I want to go into all of them.

[00:13:47] Yes. so if I remember correctly in 2023, and I may have this wrong, but in 2023, I think I remember your word of the year. And I don't, it's funny until I asked you that question today, I hadn't thought of this, but I think it was space. It was space. It was right.

[00:14:07] Trudi: Last year. And then last year was a line.

[00:14:09] Danielle: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's so interesting, right? Because if we think about that, so, okay, so first of all, here's this piece around, you were a baby. I mean, I was 21 when I had my first, and I was a baby, but you were a baby when you had your first child, right? This whole other thing of the toll. I mean, that's my language and it's not the only way I describe it.

[00:14:39] There's also the richness, the depth, the texture, all these other layers, but there is a toll for mothering [00:14:46] for 30 years, especially under. Less than fully resourced, ideal circumstances, which isn't to say that that may or may not have been yours, but I, you know, teenage motherhood comes with its own set of things.

[00:15:03] Right. Yeah. so there's that. And oftentimes, and I think most of us as mothers, we're not told that it doesn't stop. I don't know about you, but I always was like, I had three by the time I was 26, I think, and I used to think about, and don't get me wrong. I was in love with them, but it was hard.

[00:15:24] It was very, very hard. And I used to think about, well, I'm done when I'm 46, not like done with them. But the labor part, I thought that was like, no, first of all, I reset my clock by having a fourth child later and gave myself another 10 years. And then I also was hit with like, oh, it doesn't work like that.

[00:15:44] Actually, [00:15:46] the work of parenting adult children is no joke at all. And it does so often happen as we are entering or somewhere in the perimenopausal journey. And all of that in and of itself is a really big thing, especially because on top of all the, you know, biochemical aspects of perimenopause, there is this.

[00:16:12] Soul journey and life development journey. And it very often brings us face to face with pretty much anything that's needing, tending up until now, right? So it sounds like all these different pieces in a variety of ways came together. But even before we get there, I'd love to hear what you have to say about this piece before all of that, where here you were a child and a young [00:16:46] adult who's, and now even now, this person who has a rich dream life and who had an orientation that way, like other people would have just, would have oriented differently.

[00:16:59] Right? so some of it, it sounds like is in the makeup of your being. Right. And it is one of the things I think that you offer. I think other people who get to be in your care or in your leadership spaces, we either get the experience of, Oh, I'm not built like that. And I love being able to have that access,

[00:17:23] Trudi: I'm curious about one, what helps you to nurture that? And how have you come back to it when it did feel stretched or, Even broken. this is going to sound real. Woo. Yes, it really is.

[00:17:42] I mean, I think there is this element to like, I don't know another way to be [00:17:46] like, it is just really like a part of me, but also even on the days where I'm just like, like feeling low, where it is the hardest to hold that right. Yeah. Is that like Yeah. Okay. We are here like we're alive.

[00:18:00] Right. Yes. That's impossible. that's incredible. Right. Like I really there is something about that. That's just that I don't have, I describe it as like the point at which like all of my, all of what we know kind of runs out. there's this point at which it's like, Oh, we know a lot of things.

[00:18:20] we just don't know that we have a lot of ideas about what it is and why. And in some ways, none of that even matters, like we're here and we're like, and we have these like emotions and experiences and that's just a miracle, right? So if that's possible, like what else is possible?

[00:18:41] Danielle: Okay. So I hear you that that feels like a woo concept, but, [00:18:46] and I know that You're such an academic and such a researcher, so you may go down your own rabbit hole with this.

[00:18:51] But this is awe. What I'm hearing you speak to is awe.

[00:18:54] Trudi: Oh, for sure. 100%.

[00:18:56] Danielle: Right? And awe, there's science as is true with so much of the mad, so much of the things that are, that feel magical or that feel witchy or whatever, there is science there. These two are not mutually exclusive.

[00:19:09] Trudi: I think they could be for the same.

[00:19:10] For sure.

[00:19:11] Danielle: Yes. And so I want to also just add to that. Offer to listeners, especially for those who maybe have a tendency, actually I want to say this too, again, contextualizing, not only did you have your own, like you said, statistically, this is not what your life should quote unquote should look like.

[00:19:31] Right. And then secondly, your work is deeply rooted in some of the most painful parts of our cultural experience. So this is not a situation where you have this [00:19:46] base, like mainline connection to awe, to the perspective that says, the fact that we're even here also statistically doesn't make sense.

[00:19:57] So if we are here, what else is possible? And all of that, right? it's not because you're, you've lived in some sort of bubble. to me, that makes it even more just inspiring, and exciting and such a good reminder. And so for anyone who's listening, who maybe has a tendency towards pessimism or a wiring towards melancholy,

[00:20:19] which by the way, I think all are part of the texture of this fabric of humanity and has its place and richness and beauty too.

[00:20:27] And if we can't stay connected to enough. of a sense of awe, enough of a sense of possibility, enough of a sense of the dream, it can be really easy to shut down. It can be really easy to be sunk, especially amidst so many of the tensions [00:20:46] and trickiness and unsolvable dilemmas that we are being asked to live in.

[00:20:52] Trudi: Yeah.

[00:20:53] Danielle: So this piece around awe, that is something that we can cultivate. If you don't naturally have it, start to look for it, right? Start to like stare out the window at the trees and let yourself trip out on what is the color green? truly go down some of those rabbit holes of why do pine needles exist?

[00:21:14] let yourself totally all that sense of holy shit. This is a massive. universe that we are a tiny speck in and what else is possible, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:33] Trudi: I did a TEDx talk a couple of years ago and

[00:21:36] I kind of just framed that we are so good at forecasting a future that is like this kind of. You know, dystopian kind of post [00:21:46] apocalyptic, everything's bad, all full of disease and horrible things are happening and, immense wars like, oh, we're just so good at that. And there's a marketing and movie, reason for some of it, but it's a little, what I started to, notice is that in some cases we're in conversations where we're like, oh, is that happening?

[00:22:06] is that, are we actually moving culturally? Are we moving towards the world? And what's the relationship there? one of my, this isn't terrible. This is like more acute example, but like, I remember watching, back to the future to one of my favorite movies of

[00:22:22] Danielle: all time,

[00:22:24] Trudi: right. And watching, Marty McFly's boss, like yell through a screen and like that scene where he's you're fired, you're fired.

[00:22:32] and I remember watching that and being like, one day I'm going to be able to talk to someone on a screen and we're going to be able to, right. And now we can, we, we do dream our futures, right. But we're like in the habit of dreaming all these things [00:22:46] that are like scary and oppressive and those things are reinforced to us in the media and I'm not.

[00:22:53] Trying to make a statement on like art and what it should be and shouldn't be. But I do think that there is an opportunity for us to be more intentional in creating our futures and like what we, how we want to live and shape business and shape relationships and shape families and communities. Right.

[00:23:10] Like I think at a smaller scale, we can do that, but we need to give ourself the permission of just imagining it's possible, but that's tricky, right? Yes, it's tricky because the first thing that our brains do, if you're not used to being in a practice of this, the first thing that our brains do when we start thinking of the future is start to be critical and ask questions about like how and find all the ways that it won't work, right?

[00:23:36] Like we're just so good at that. And I like to try to remind people that dreams aren't concerned with how like that's something else. That's a different, I put on put [00:23:46] online recently. That's a different meeting. Like we figure out how later. Right. Right. But the other part of that is that in order for us to dream a world where, for example, racism doesn't exist or healthcare, everybody has healthcare, right.

[00:24:01] In order for us to do that, we actually have to release some of the things that we already believe. About like how other people behave and other people's biases and others. For example, in the talk, I say that in order to imagine a world where racism isn't real. We need to release the idea that white folks are inherently racist like we might those two things might be incompatible.

[00:24:26] That's like incredibly uncomfortable to hold. and I don't have a solution for how to solve that paradox, but I think that the way to do that is in conversation and radical imagination.

[00:24:39] Yes.

[00:24:40] Danielle: I hear radical imagination, I hear relationship, and I hear being [00:24:46] able to access enough of a felt sense of safety that you can.

[00:24:52] Release the things that are giving you some sense of control or some sense of stability or some sense of safety. Yeah. And I also wonder, for the people who can get really stuck with, but if I focus on my personal dream of success, Then I'm part of the problem.

[00:25:17] Trudi: Yeah, but that comes, that's a very similar, it's this zero sum world that we're imagining where like we all can't have all the things that we need.

[00:25:26] And we all don't have the same dreams, right? it's very rare that you find two people who are like, yes, exactly what I want. It's exactly the same thing. There's space for all of us to, live well and be fulfilled and pursue our dream. I think that the idea that, if I have, someone else doesn't is a false, equation.

[00:25:45] Danielle: I think it's a false [00:25:46] equation. I think it's not. I think it's by design.

[00:25:49] Trudi: Oh, for sure.

[00:25:50] Danielle: Right. It is one of those things that keeps us distracted. It keeps us looking at each other as the problem rather than looking at the bigger issues, And keeping our upset pointed in a more generative direction.

[00:26:04] Trudi: and there's maybe like a handful of people that, that might apply to, right.

[00:26:08] Like the people who have so much wealth that like that them doing executing on those things is actually harming others, but it is certainly not. The vast majority of us,

[00:26:20] Danielle: I would say that there's probably lots of misuse of power and money by people of all kinds on the regular, and that we also all probably do that from time to time, but in terms of the Ongoing egregious misuse of money and power.

[00:26:39] That's having like significant impact on our world. That is not you. That is not me. That is not the [00:26:46] people we're working with. And that's not to say we don't keep working with how to be good stewards and be in good relationship with our money and our power, but the answer isn't to not have money or power or to have less money or power.

[00:26:59] Trudi: I 100%.

[00:27:01] Danielle: Yeah, I think for the most part, like you said, we're not all dreaming the exact same world, but I do think there's some through lines and when most of us think about when we do feel into the dream of the world we'd most want to live in, we see a world where everyone has plenty. We don't see a world where people are having like salary caps.

[00:27:25] that's actually not the thing. Right. Right. So these like internal things about that somehow, if I start making this much money or if I charge this or whatever, I'm a problem. Check that against your dream of the world that you most want to live in, and that will help you get clearer about what is really true for you.

[00:27:45] [00:27:46] Totally. And you mentioned earlier too, you hit this moment with, you know, you were at a certain revenue point, a certain, expansive place in your business, And it turned into the hustle. So like, it's also, and we all know this, but it's useful to recognize. It's not like you reach a certain money point and everything just becomes.

[00:28:07] Perfection like that doesn't exist either.

[00:28:10] Trudi: No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. And I think for me, like what my experience of it was that in, in a way it's like I got the dream. And then it was just I just got to kind of keep the plates.

[00:28:27] Spinning and I did what a lot of people do at the, you know, but because I was surrounded by folks who were on the same kind of trajectory, which was like hire a big team and, you know, try to scale up and hire a publicist and, you know, all, all the things right. and I'm not saying that those things are [00:28:46] bad.

[00:28:46] I'm not saying that those were bad decisions. I'm really proud of all of the things that we've done and all of the things that we built, it came at a cost like a burnout and emotional, right And I also think that,if I would have had mentors at the time who could reflect to me, Hey, you have this, moment that is very unique, right?

[00:29:08] Where you have all this resource and not a whole lot of commitment, like you could build anything you want, right? you don't have to build what everybody else is building, like, what did you always want to do? I think I probably would have made a couple of different decisions.

[00:29:23] Danielle: that's very possible. And also you. And it sounds like you've ended up somewhere important.

[00:29:29] Trudi: 100%.

[00:29:30] Danielle: Yeah. That that was, that there's, there, I also wonder if there was like an initiatory process happening there where you were, you know, being asked, like you're at that threshold, right?

[00:29:42] Are you going to continue to go this way [00:29:46] or are you going to choose something different? And that always requires giving something up.

[00:29:51] Trudi: Yeah, that feels true.

[00:29:55] Danielle: What was it that you had to give up in order to choose the new way?

[00:29:59] Trudi: Well, I certainly gave up revenue like we, you know, I was like fine to, I realized that we needed to scale down on marketing and just kind of revisit some offers and not.

[00:30:13] I had, there was a time where I had so many calls on my calendar, like those first couple of years, like I was really overdoing it. Right. Yeah. And part of it was that like, it was like, I was like, people are paying attention to this really important work. I'm going to get on every call.

[00:30:29] Danielle: Right.

[00:30:30] Trudi: Right. I wasn't doing it with any resent or with any, like I was, it was a mission. It was 100 percent on mission, 100 percent and I don't regret any one of those, extra calls or anything like that. but I realized that that was not [00:30:46] sustainable, right? Not sustainable. And, and I also started to see the way that like the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion was changing and I was getting uncomfortable with some of the ways that it was changing.

[00:31:01] a lot of the anti woke sentiment, a lot of anger. I was like, it just, and my practice, you know this, my practice in DEI is very different. we think of our work as being really about equity centered and like how we interact with everyone. You know, like how we just kind of like create environments.

[00:31:19] And I also wanted to get like my PhD wouldn't write my dissertation. there was just so much happening. so anyway,

[00:31:27] Danielle: PhD, you heard that everyone, right? just as a tie back to this whole origin story, PhD is happening. Go on.

[00:31:34] Trudi: Yeah. So I had been a PhD candidate. I wanted to get back to my dissertation, right?

[00:31:38] Like there's all this stuff. so yeah, so I was like, we have to cut the amount of coaching time that I'm available, which meant that we were cutting, you [00:31:46] know, we were taking away a revenue stream, which was fine. Cause then we downsized the team, like it all, we made it all work. We downsized the team, and just got real focused on what we did really well and serving the client, you know, serving our clients really well instead of having lots of programs and, big, big cohorts of students.

[00:32:03] yeah. And yeah. And

[00:32:06] Danielle: and you gave us the hustle.

[00:32:07] Trudi: Oh yeah. And Oh, for sure.

[00:32:09] Danielle: Yeah. And that, that all sounds easy, like go give up the hustle, but when you're in it that I don't know about for you, but it can feel very risky. Oh, yeah. And there's also usually other players involved, other people, and am I going to let them down, or what does that, what impact does that have on them, and all of those pieces.

[00:32:28] Yep. Not small.

[00:32:31] Trudi: Not small.

[00:32:32] Danielle: No. But you did it, and you chose

[00:32:37] Trudi: Yeah. Yeah. So all of 2023, I was focused on like space because obviously, but the way that we work, we have commitments, you know, it's [00:32:46] like you come into 2023, you're still delivering programs and contracts. So we started to create the space in 2023 and 2024 was all about alignment.

[00:32:57] and that like alignment. And really playing with this concept of like center, what if I centered myself because, I also, I touched on this about the kids, like realizing I have been a parent for all of my adult life,

[00:33:15] Danielle: right? I

[00:33:15] Trudi: don't know. And I don't know an adult life that is not about making decisions that account for at least.

[00:33:24] To other people and more at different stages. Right. So really what have I centered myself here? what if I put my, not just like my time and my capacity, but also my talent and my identities, right? Like the past versions of myself and give them space to reclaim a little energy.

[00:33:43] And I started to do this,Work [00:33:46] around letting different, you know, some people call it inner child work, interadolescent work, like giving those parts of me space to explore and kind of see what we've built and get their insight on how things were going. Yeah. And yeah. And so last year that like it felt a little scary, but it also was the thing that allowed me to say, okay, this is the mastermind that I want to run.

[00:34:08] And this is the project that I want to bring forth. And these are the collaborations. That I want to explore, but different in a different way.

[00:34:18] Danielle: Yeah. Yes. Well, that's what I was just going to say. So there's the what, and then there's the how we do it. And I don't mean the how as in the mechanics, although that can be a part of it, but more in the like how we move, right?

[00:34:30] This is the way I want to move in this thing. And this is the thing I want to do. I'm just going to also plug for a second that, when we were talking about collaborations, we're collaborating on a couple of things this year, which is very exciting. And I would love to know what you feel [00:34:46] excited about with that.

[00:34:47] But I also want to name this because you were talking about like a piece not being sustainable when you were really in that high responsive. On mission, making yourself profoundly available to the wider community to bring everything that you had to bring to meet that moment, but that it wasn't sustainable.

[00:35:08] And I think it is useful for us to remember, like for those who are listening and for all of us to remember, not everything. Is sustainable and something not being sustainable doesn't make it a problem. It's when we do the unsustainable thing for longer than we should or can. Right. Or when we don't realize we're doing it.

[00:35:34] You know, so for example, like we may know that are, we may know what we need to price things in order to sustain our work. And we may choose on purpose to go way off of that to [00:35:46] make something. Wildly low priced, or we may even go up from that for a variety of really useful reasons, but we couldn't probably sustain either one, right?

[00:35:57] there's, there are things that we do with our energy, with our time, with our money that aren't sustainable. I think of two metaphors we can pull from that can help remind us of this. And one is. Those of us who have had children or who have just witnessed it, like labor is not sustainable.

[00:36:17] We couldn't do it every day. It would literally kill us. But we are perfectly capable. It's actually a life giving experience, although very, very taxing and has all these other possibilities of things, but you know, it is something that has this beautiful, worthwhile outcome and is something that we can do.

[00:36:37] And it is on purpose. And so sometimes just know, like when you're looking at your business or your life and you're headed into something and it's [00:36:46] feeling really intense and you're thinking that it's not sustainable. I think a good question to ask is is that, but is it on mission? Am I resourced enough to do it?

[00:36:55] Is this the thing for me to do now? And how long am I willing to do that unsustainable thing? I'm curious how that lands for you. And if you have any thoughts, you'd want to add. Yeah,

[00:37:05] Trudi: I think that's exactly right. I feel like we all have seasons in our life where we like, dig our heels in and we're like, we're going to do it.

[00:37:13] Right. yeah. And sometimes that looks like, take booking your calendar with more clients than you need to. And sometimes it looks like, taking the extra shifts at work. And sometimes it looks like staying up at night so you can write a paper that do like, right. It can look like a hundred different things, like millions of different things.

[00:37:33] but that they come in seasons and that they're intentional and that they're not like ways of life for long term like that resource. Right. And if we find the balance, [00:37:46] not that everything works out perfectly. But it's. We can do those when the time comes when we're rested right and when we have like when we're balanced everywhere else but if we're constantly running on 110 capacity all the time just from one thing to the next.

[00:38:02] Nothing's getting done well, you're suffering in the process and there's going to be other impacts whether or not you see them or not.

[00:38:08] Danielle: Yes. And I think that part is something that so many of us have done for so long, right? We've, we come into many of us go into adulthood in that way, over, over efforting, overdoing, being under resourced, under supported, under nourished.

[00:38:28] And then there can be oftentimes at midlife, sometimes at other points, these burnout moments, these meltdown moments, these freeze moments, these, I can't do it like this anymore moments. So recognizing where you are, recognizing if it's a season or if it's a birthing process, [00:38:46] or if it's on mission and it's on purpose.

[00:38:48] And then I think another thing is when we are able to be more proactive and we can see it coming and be like, okay, I'm digging in, I'm doing this thing. That is really beyond, sometimes it's not sustainable. Sometimes it's even like, this is actually beyond my capacity, but I'm going to do it right now for these reasons.

[00:39:05] And then I'm going to do these things to replenish, repair, recover,

[00:39:11] Trudi: right,

[00:39:12] Danielle: right. And not just like, keep going, keep going.

[00:39:16] Trudi: Yeah. I think that that's a good check on it. It's like this, like, am I consenting to this? am I? Yeah. Yeah. Am I functioning this way with full consent? Is it, am I functioning this way out of obligation?

[00:39:28] I think you need to, there needs to be a check on that. And then, yeah, absolutely. what's the process for scaling back or does it have a definite, like an end point where you're like, okay, this is, I'm going to get this master's degree. This is what that's going to look like, Like just being in a relationship with it [00:39:46] so that you're like, okay, I know what's coming. I can lean into the space around it. and I'm monitoring, like if I'm consenting at every step in the way of the way. I

[00:39:57] Danielle: love that. I love that, that you're checking for consent. Okay. I want to come back to your dream in this moment.

[00:40:05] And I'm curious, like when you, if you were to speak to the most audacious, I'm going to be talking about how you can make this aspect of your dream, however big or small seeming that is. what would you want to share?

[00:40:16] Trudi: Yeah, I am really obsessed with gathering people in person. And this is a big part of my dream and how I want to be like spending time.

[00:40:29] There is something about creating spaces for people to come and gather and do work together and explore and have some of the kinds of conversations that we're actually having right now. I feel really inspired by the idea of just providing people space and like working with [00:40:46] people and working with my team to create different

[00:40:49] iterations of that. Like I'm feeling very playful. I am very much relating to my business and my work as an artist right now, even though I'm a coach,

[00:40:57] Danielle: I was going to ask about that.

[00:41:00] Trudi: it's feeling a lot like curation and vision and gathering and space. Like I feel very much like a creative director in the business right now, thinking about how all these things blend together and how it makes people feel and again, how like people have space to create.

[00:41:18] so yeah, I'm like leaning into that. And so I'm looking forward to being with people in person. I'm on my way to Puerto Rico just in a couple days. To facilitate what we're calling our residency program for a group of our students. you and I are working on some things to gather people.

[00:41:35] I already have some speaking that I'll be doing this year. So I'm looking, I'm really looking forward to prioritizing that and figuring out how we can re envision the [00:41:46] typical kind of retreat experience that a lot of people are used to.

[00:41:50] Danielle: Yes. I love hearing all of that. we've been talking about these couple of retreats that we're going to do and the Um, and playing with yeah, what's going to make them rich and textured, not just different, like not just different for different sake, but like rich and textured and deeply fulfilling.

[00:42:12] And I am curious about, you know, for our collaboration, what's feeling exciting for you about that in this moment.

[00:42:20] Trudi: Yeah. What is feeling really exciting to me is actually gathering people around the, like around midlife and around recreation. for the last five years, my work has pretty squarely centered around diversity, equity, inclusion, and coaching, and like the intersection of those things.

[00:42:37] and like before the last five years, even though Those things have always been present. But before that, I was doing a lot of work that had to [00:42:46] do with like personal development for peers of mine, like women at the time, women in their thirties who were working in nonprofits and trying to figure out how to start a side hustle and supplement their income or navigate their career or create something new.

[00:42:59] and before that I was doing youth development work, so I've always had this desire to do more of the to blend the personal development and the professional growth. And so I'm looking forward to being in new conversations with people revisiting old conversations with people and gathering around, these fresh ideas.

[00:43:17] Danielle: I'm very excited aboutthe intersections that we both bring around this conversation of midlife and really so much of it is about the dream, the dreams that are working, the dreams that aren't the ones that we want to choose, the ones we want to release and the ways that it sets us up for where we go from here.

[00:43:36] as we wrap up, I have it. two questions for you. One is very practical or more practical anyway. And I'm curious, what have you learned about maintaining [00:43:46] enough financial stability when you are in these seasons of reinvention?

[00:43:53] Trudi: what have I learned? I feel like I'm still in the learning.

[00:43:56] I gotta say,we have scaled down. In a way that has been proportionate also to our costs. I'm being intentional about costs and that's something that has been different. there was a time again where it was like, yeah, let's do all the programs and let's do all the things.

[00:44:11] these days I'm feeling, I think one of the biggest learning has been like, Oh, you actually know more than you're giving yourself credit for. let's be a little bit more intentional about, how we're using the company resources and really getting help to execute instead of Guidance and like feeling like you need to learn all the new things like there. that was a big thing over the last two years. because I am a learner, like this desire to feel like, oh, I have to do all the things and learn how to do all the things right. Hire all the people to teach me how to do the things.

[00:44:41] Yeah. and now I'm very much like actually, you know, a lot of things, you know, a [00:44:46] lot, get help. In very intentional spaces in very intentional ways, and just be a little bit more. I'm like really just loving the leanness of how we're functioning.

[00:44:55] Danielle: Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. And then my last question for you is who, and I'm particularly curious around more like who you would view as an elder alive or not alive and whether they are.

[00:45:12] whether you've met them in person or not, but who inspires you?

[00:45:16] Trudi: Oh, who inspires me?

[00:45:17] So Bad Bunny just released an album. Yeah. Have you heard about this?

[00:45:22] Danielle: No.

[00:45:23] Trudi: So Bad Money just released an album and I'm still working my way through it, but it like just reading and listening to all of the articles and people talking about it.

[00:45:31] he has essentially released a political album that is all really about honoring Puerto Rico and really calling out the colonization that the active colonization that is happening there. [00:45:46] And because of what he's also done is decided that he's only doing his next concert in Puerto Rico.

[00:45:55] Danielle: Oh, wow.

[00:45:55] Trudi: And he's making it difficult for people who do are not residents of the island to buy tickets. Like he is trying to prioritize access to local residents you know, Puerto Rico right now has all these, it's essentially attack team and for United States citizens, lots of people like will move there, live there half the year, move their business there, and they pay 0 percent capital gains tax.

[00:46:20] but people who live on the island don't get access to that. And so what that has created is like a housing crisis and all these shortages and all like this, there's a lot of conflict around that. And so to have a star like Bad Bunny, take a political stance.

[00:46:40] It's really like this new generation of leadership or I think about like [00:46:46] early 80s and Late 80s, early 90s hip hop that was very political and calling the police and calling out the system this is kind of like the new generation's voice for that. Like it is very inspiring. And because I'm on my way to Puerto Rico and was just listening to that album in the car, that definitely is something that feels like very, yeah, it is very inspiring to to witness this.

[00:47:09] Danielle: Yeah. And I can see where, I mean, first of all, this is just inspiring, right? I think sort of objectively, but I imagine that there's a lot of intersections there for you specifically, especially like your love of art, your love of art.

[00:47:26] Building this more beautiful world, your love of using things well in order to make change. All of these pieces. Yeah. My love of

[00:47:35] Trudi: Puerto Rico. My love of Puerto

[00:47:36] Danielle: Rico. All of it. Yeah. Totally. There's

[00:47:38] Trudi: so, there's, it's very layered. Yeah. Ooh. It's so good.

[00:47:42] Danielle: Okay. My friend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:47:45] Trudi: I just want [00:47:46] to thank you for being here. If people are interested and following along my work, I am writing a newsletter called Working Hypothesis. Living, leading and dreaming through chaos. Oh, so good. Yes. Like I said, like leaning into this more kind of artistic way of relating to my work.

[00:48:05] I'm really excited about that. So get on my newsletter list. You can go to my website. It's just trudilebron.Com and you can just get right onto the newsletter and yeah. And you'll start hearing my

[00:48:17] Danielle: ideas. Oh, I love that. I'll make sure that those links are in the notes and thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:48:25] You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Time Stamps:

[00:03:46] The power of dreaming: Trudi’s word of the year is dream, a guiding force in her life. Danielle and Trudi explore the role of dreams in shaping identity, resilience, and personal evolution.

[00:08:26] Creating a future without a blueprint: Growing up in an environment where college degrees and homeownership weren’t the norm, Trudi shares how she envisioned a different future. Danielle reflects on the power of imagination when stepping into the unknown.

[00:09:57] Defying the odds: From teenage motherhood to entrepreneurship: Trudi shares her journey from having two kids by 16 and dropping out of high school to becoming a successful  business owner. Danielle discusses the weight of personal history in shaping who we become.

[00:14:57] The moment success turned into hustle: Trudi opens up about reaching career milestones only to feel trapped in the cycle of overwork. Danielle and Trudi unpack how ambition can turn into depletion, and what it takes to reclaim joy and alignment.

[00:16:43] The wake-up call: What if you centered yourself? At a turning point, Trudi received a clear message: What would you choose if you put yourself at the center of your life? Danielle and Trudi discuss what it means to truly prioritize yourself.

[00:18:51] Soul journey and midlife reinvention: Danielle and Trudi explore the transition into midlife, from parenting adult children to navigating perimenopause and embracing personal transformation.

[00:20:22] The role of awe in resilience: Trudi describes how her curiosity and wonder about the world keeps her going, while Danielle shares how cultivating awe can help navigate life’s biggest challenges.

[00:24:52] Imagining a better future: The power of radical dreaming: Why we must dream beyond what we’ve been shown. Danielle and Trudi discuss how personal and collective transformation starts with expanding what we believe is possible.

[00:30:14] Letting go of the hustle: Scaling down to align with your values: Trudi shares the shifts she made to step away from exhaustion, including reducing her workload, restructuring her team, and redefining success. Danielle reflects on the cost of unsustainable ambition.

[00:38:20] Dreaming a different way of doing business: What does it look like to create a business that honors your energy, values, and joy? Trudi and Danielle discuss how to build something that’s both sustainable and meaningful.

Reflection Prompts:

To take the conversation deeper, use these journal prompts to reflect on your own journey:

• What’s your dream right now? What would it look like to take the next small step toward it?

• What might shift if you centered yourself in your own choices?

• What’s a moment of awe you’ve experienced recently?

🌿Visibility Medicine starts March 11th! If you’re done with over-efforting, under-earning, and questioning whether your leadership and healership belong, this is your invitation to take up your full space—boldly, unapologetically, and on your own terms. Join us here.

Resources Mentioned and Featured Links:

Bad Bunny’s 2025 Puerto Rico Residency

Trudi’s TedX talk: Searching For Our Social Future

About Trudi:

Trudi Lebron is the CEO of ScriptFlip! LLC and creator of the Institute for Equity Centered Coaching.

By the time Trudi was 16, she had two children and had dropped out of high school—all the odds were against her. Today, Trudi runs a million-dollar coaching and consulting firm, helping entrepreneurs and coaches build antiracist businesses and become equity-centered coaches and leaders through ScriptFlip! certification programs, consulting packages, and executive coaching. Trudi holds a BA in Theatre, a Master of Science in Psychology, and is currently ABD in a PhD program in Social Psychology.

Where to Find Trudi:

Website & Working Hypothesis Newsletter Sign-up: trudilebron.com
Instagram: @trudilebron
Institute for Equity Centered Coaching: equitycenteredcoaching.com

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This podcast was produced by The Willoughby Co.